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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
1682
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Posted - 2016.03.11 17:46:42 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote:We understand that for many people, this will fundamentally change the way you can use the (now renamed) buddy list, and we apologize for any short term inconvenience this may cause. WeGÇÖre happy to discuss any use cases we may have neglected and any suggestions for future iteration that donGÇÖt contradict the reasoning outlined above.
Thanks in advance for your feedback!
Use case you probably didn't consider: Wormhole space
The use of watchlist in wormholes was fundamentally different than K-space. Yes, there were some people who used it to gank ratting capitals (similar to watchlisting supers). However, the vast majority of it's use was in tandem with "active" intel activities - ie scouting targets.
This use case wasn't broken - it was fundamentally necessary. Because there is no local in WH space, there is no way to distinguish between a cloaked pilot and an offline pilot. You can be diligently watching someone (doing "active intel" , which should be encouraged!) when suddenly they warp off and disappear. Did they cloak or go offline? There is literally no way to find out now. This problem doesn't exist in K-space because of local and locators. You can infer that they are cloaked because they are still in local. If they disappear from local you can check nearby systems to locate them. If that fails, you can always run a locator to be sure. We don't even have locators in WH space! So there is literally no way to know if I'm wasting my time waiting on someone who isn't even playing the game.
This might seem like a short term inconvenience, but it is a HUGE permanent problem for content in WH space. 90% of pilots spend their time in cloaked ships unless actively ratting or pvping. It's also quite common for people to log out in cloaked ships for extra stealth when they log back in. When I'm scouting and watch someone cloak up, I now have to decide how long to wait and see if they will come back. 20 minutes? An hour? Three hours? I can't count how many times I've been watching a target and getting ready to fight when they suddenly log out and never come back. In which case I move on and find something else to entertain me. Apparently now I'm just supposed to wait around on the off chance they'll return?
One natural solution would be to allow locator agents in wormhole space. However I do not consider this an appropriate solution. It's absurd that I would need someone in k-space to tell me what happened to someone I was literally just looking at in a wormhole. In the real world people can't just disappear into a parallel universe. This a game - we need some way to distinguish between people playing it with us and those who are visiting their grandparents or baking cookies!
Another solution would be to implement watchlist in such a way that a pilot doesn't show as "online" until you have confirmed it by "seeing" them in space/chat etc. At which point the watchlist would function naturally and show you if they log out. I don't think this is a great solution either because it could be easily abused by logging in and out periodically (or accidentally with bad internet).
If the main concern was supers, there were other ways to solve that problem. Disable locators in null sec...allow them to dock (already coming with citadel changes!) etc. You seem to have been duped into believing that the watchlist is "free intel", a naughty buzzword. How is it freer than local? Or locators (cost is basically irrelevant unless you're hunting many targets, which of course now you must do since you don't know who is online!) ? Locators are particularly silly. You have to grind a bunch of unrelated standing just to use them. They're only useful if you have an alt since you need to fly around to get to your target. And there's no counter play for them either.
TLDR: Players need some way of collecting intel. Just because something can be used as "free intel" in certain situations doesn't mean it isn't absolutely necessary in others. You say you don't like non-choices. My choice now is to sit around and wait for content or sit around and wait for content, instead of going out and finding some actively. Help me CCP Lebowski. You're my only hope.
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Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
1729
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Posted - 2016.03.23 16:17:49 -
[2] - Quote
Miss Peregrine wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote:Thanks for all watchlist feedback great and small, thoughtful and mean!  We'll be discussing this as a team and I'll endeavour to get some responses on your points and suggestions. Thanks for your patience! Any Idea on when we might see a reply on this?
No news is good news!
Unless you're waiting for a war target to log in. In which case it's just no news. Because they removed that news.
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Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
1742
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Posted - 2016.04.02 04:25:56 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:I can't speak to the state of any discussions about the watch list change, but CCP Lebowski and his team are working furiously, as are the entire Eve crew, to make sure that our upcoming Citadels expansion is in good shape.
Well...it won't be. At least not in wormhole space. When Citadels come out people in J-space will log out inside them instead of their POS and I will lose the very last indicator that I'm actually playing with other people (visually watching them log out in their POS) and not just twiddling my thumbs waiting on hopes and dreams.
I'm trying not to be rude because I care about this deeply and I want to see it get attention, but I have wasted many hours of my life in the last few weeks looking for players that weren't even playing anymore. It kind of blows my mind that anyone could complain about a measly animation next to something like this.
In any case, thanks to those from CCP who have already responded and I will hold out hope that the radio silence on watchlists means serious discussion is happening, or will at least happen once citadels are out of the way. I want to make it very clear that we have not forgotten this issue and it will continue to hamstring content in J-space until it's resolved.
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Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
1745
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Posted - 2016.04.05 20:22:20 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Darwin wrote:Cara Forelli wrote:When Citadels come out people in J-space will log out inside them instead of their POS and I will lose the very last indicator that I'm actually playing with other people (visually watching them log out in their POS) and not just twiddling my thumbs waiting on hopes and dreams. The best place to provide feedback on Citadels, since they're unreleased, is probably the Test Server Feedback forum at this point.
Thanks. It's really watchlist feedback which is why I mentioned it here. Citadels in J space are just one of the many unconsidered issues, and even without them the watchlist change has a huge negative impact on player interaction there.
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Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
1855
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Posted - 2016.06.13 20:42:07 -
[5] - Quote
Lord Razpataz wrote:Still waiting for CCP Lebowski's respons on the watchlist feedback.
But... its more likly there will never be any respons I guess?
That sounds like free intel. You need to fly to Iceland, guess whether or not he's in the office and where he sits, and tackle him.
You can't just have information for free.
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Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
1863
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Posted - 2016.06.16 21:15:31 -
[6] - Quote
On second thought, they probably won't give you access rights to the office. I guess you'll just have to wait outside and see if anyone eventually comes out.
Better bring your battle bucket
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Cara Forelli
Meticulously Indifferent
1885
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Posted - 2016.07.02 14:52:24 -
[7] - Quote
Thanks for the response Larrikin.
I'm quite disappointed to see wormholes not even mentioned after the detailed feedback I offered. I have wasted many hours trying to play with people who have already logged out, without even the use of locators to confirm they are gone.
I still believe you made a fundamental mistake and nerfed the wrong source of "free intel". Knowing someone's online status was only "overpowered" (debatable) when it's was used in conjunction with other sources of free intel (local, locators, etc.). However this is your choice to make.
I'll be honest though, it really ruined the game for me. After a few weeks of burnout from grasping at ghosts, I really haven't had any desire to play. I very much hope you consider wormhole space if/when you come up with a new solution (and please keep in mind the problem there is somewhat different than what mercs face - see my earlier posts (1 & 2) for details). It might be too late for me, but at least the next generation of wormholers will benefit.
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